Teams? - all worthless!

Posted by paul23 on Dec. 17, 2007, 5:04 a.m.

Seems like I'm not really a frequent blogger after all, I wanted to write this blog for a long time already but never really found the time to write it "all" out.

This is a small "rant" about, well I don't know exactly, I guess about all those peope who want to make a team but are completely incapable! Or well even more specifically: those who are capable to draw my attention by being decent, but after all turn out to lack the real determination! Though I'm currently in a team (and they probably start to hate me for this blog: I'm going to use this team as lot of examples how a good thing can start turning wrong).

Well I am a "programmer" bad in and really not interested in making graphics or doing audio. I want to make an engine, and I don't want to spent time looking for (or even worse: creating) graphics and sounds. - Also I just found out I'm actually bad at game design too! This is why I'm always looking for a team, and I almost never ever release anything (and once I release anything it simply gets overlooked, but that's another story).

Anyway one of the main problems - and the main reason I quitted any teams - is that the teams simply don't set realistic goals. Too often you'll find a team who want to create a new "multiplayer game". - I'm find with that, with some reading it should be possible indeed! However when the first thing they do is design the interface of the "meetingroom", I know enough: these people aren't capable of doing something in multiplayer: they don't even know the order of importance/difficulty. (and one of the most important things when making a program: first focus on all difficult aspects, then the easier aspects and finally combine everything).

Or another typical problem with a team: they want to make more and more, always thinking of new "ideas".. Which results into many projects at the same time going on, sometimes even more projects than team members! I.e. take the team I'm into now already: only 5-6 active members, and already 5 different projects. Ranging from a typical rts to 3d fps to even a C++ application!

This brings me to the other point of non-realistic goals: You know there's a reason why I program in gamemaker and not in C(++) or any other language? Well there is, apart from not being able to program in C(++) to the point of being efficient (though I could learn that in a (few) months, I also use gm because it efficiency when it comes down to actual programming! Being experienced a bit with JAVA (had a course of several months in JAVA), I still wasn't able to produce anything of the same quality as in GM. Now even if I would like to program in C++, I wouldn't be looking at the gmc for a team! - I would be looking at a site like gamedev.net or similar for a team..

The second main problem I experience when programming is that most other teams simply don't have the same "level" when doing something. It might seem very selfish (and maybe I am now) but it's simply what I've experienced: Whenever I make something in gm I simply don't be satisfied unless it's perfect! Almost isn't good enough! And whenever I open gm I open it because I want to make something new, to look for another limit of gm, to increase my programming knowlenge!

Often when I try to make a certain script for something I make it first 4-5 times. Using all methods I can think about. Then I go testing, first to check for potential bugs and limitations (though I know most already when programming: whenever I "find" a limitation I immediately write it in a comment). And finaly, most importantly, the speed: I always test both the avarage speed (using "random" input), and the big O speed, the later also gives me more insight in the actual process which goes on. The resulting script will be the "perfect" script.

Now when I join a team I kind of expect the other team members to have the same attitude! How often I'm fooled with this…

Also -again I'm being selfish- I think I can go proud of my gm knowlenge. I haven't met at least any thing I couldn't make yet (unless it is thanks to some limitation in gm: like the speed). However in all teams I've been currently theo ther programmers weren't all that advanced. And in the end it seemed I was more like a mentor than a team member! - I always had to explain how to program somethinge efficient.

For example take the team I'm currently in, the project leader had programmed the game quite a bit already: it was a pretty active wip, so I thought he was good and coded efficient. What was I mistaken: The game was an rts (caw), and let me show you some examples. First of all he added this line:

global.team = "1"
to the creation event of a human object. that's like 3 problems in 1 line: first of all how would using a static teamnumber ever work? - then you would need to have multiple objects, for each team a new set of objects..

Secondly why using a string? at start I thought he maybe only used it for drawing. However he never ever used it as a string, and at any event this variable was used, he started his event with
global.team = real(global.team)
and ended the event with
global.team = string(global.team
. - He literary did it 68 times! Did it never came to his mind using a real value would be easier?

Another great example is an ifstatement he used to check wether an object was an "enemy":

if (other.object_index = obj_enemy_townhall || other.object_index = obj_enemy_barracks || 
other.object_index = obj_enemy_archery || other.object_index = obj_enemy_human)
and it was even longer: basically another "or" for every object used! - Did it came never to his mind using parents would be easier?

I don't have anything against people who are less "good" at programming than me: I've been bad at one point too. And I actually like explaining things (that's probably the main reason I stick to the Q&A boards of the gmc), however I would like to work together with people with about the same knowlenge as me (preferably a bit higher so I get to learn :) ) sometimes too!

These are my main 2 reason I often start loosing interest in teams. (but thanks to specialization issues, and lack of any experience in any of the other aspects of game design apart from programming I always come back to join a team again!

The team I'm currently in (and especially the project) is called xsoft games and I'm working on a game called "cities at war". I've actually come to the point where I rewrote the entire engine (though nobody will notice, I kept as goal "optimizing without changing anything in the interface"). The team isn't really "bad', actually the programmers are pretty decent: they simply lack the experience to know how to make the right decisions in gm! For chirstmas - when I'm on holiday - the project leader (of which I talked a lot already in above paragraph) asked me to return the program to him so he could program the AI (and multiplayer). Normally I would gladly do this: however as you can see above he's not the best programmer in gm: sure he can program pretty well, but his code efficiency and optimazition is very bad.. And I really would like to make CAW actually a good game, however if I would return it to the project leader I'm afraid I might have to rewrite the game again.

So far my ranting, to end this blog I'll put up some questionaire:

Quote:
1) have you ever been in a team yourself (if so which?)?

1a) Did that team actually release anything?

1b) Do you actually consider that team "advanced"?

2) Do you know other teams which are supposed to be "advanced"?

3) how long have you been using GM already?

4) - or any other programming languages?

5) do you consider yourself "fluent" with any language? - which?

6) Do you also try to achieve perfectionism when working with gamemaker (or basically when doing anything), or do you rather do a quick job - "as long as it does work it's ok"?

6) what should I do this christams? return the program or first try to explain it thoroughly -and try to make him program a bit better? (see above paragraph)

-paul23

PS: well I know it might seem actually bad, but really join xsoftgames! - if some other advanced people would join it it would really become a great team: it has already a pretty solid base!

Comments

stampede 16 years, 4 months ago

6) You should make the engine modular as possible. Then other programmers can write (I.E. that AI thing) modules and you can just check them (and rewrite if necessary). Then add it to the game engine. You just have to design the engine first really carefully to make succesful modular system.

I would love to join good team, but team itself should be designed carefully. Who codes and who make graphics and so on. Two/three members are good number for a team. Check out Twinsen-team. First member just codes and second one sprites all the graphics. That just works.

Tasm 16 years, 4 months ago

tl;dr

mixahman 16 years, 4 months ago

I'm always looking for someone to work with but nothing ever starts. I remember a long time ago (GM5 era). I think it was the 1st gamemaker smash bros wanna-be clone & I made a character select screen for the people that wanted to make it but that idea died because it was all hype. Nobody ever does anything except come up with ideas everybody else has & rile people up.

I've used GameMaker for years now but I just do basic programming. Never really sparked my interest in learning more advanced shit except how to make simple games. I'm more of the artist, game desinger, level designer & audio man. Programming is not my best subject. As you can see everybody is a programmer. I'm on the other part of the gamemaking. :p

Hell if some just programmed my games & ideas… I'll fuckin work on the rest. But I'm stuck figuring out codes & debugging my scripts instead of working on the other aspects that I know of.

Evilish 16 years, 4 months ago

I sorta de-centralized my term of 'team'. My current projects have a few people I can rely on to help, it's as simple as that. Theres two people who have helped, one with graphics, one with level designs.

I think doubling up people on a single resource is an extremely bad thing. The graphics may not match if two spriters use their own style, or the levels may skip in difficulty now and then because of multiple designers.

Programmer, Graphics, Audio, Design.

One person each, they can all have input on the games design and story, but should respect the leader's wish to change anything to help the game. Which I see now is more of a concern for your group, your head member isn't experience enough to make proper decisions for a game.

My idea is if you really must have a team, have it split up according to the amount of programmers. Each mini-group can then work on their own designated program(no sharing), but artists or designers can work on multiple projects.

Besides, I'm in my own one person group, and I'm making a multiplayer online game with a C++ server, hah!

KaBob799 16 years, 4 months ago

1) Yes, Mist Mountain Productions and Game Fortress

1a)Game Fortress has

1b) Yes

2)Not really but I dont pay much attention

3) 3 years I think

4) PHP and Java

5) GM, PHP, and Java

6) I consider it a demo until its perfect.

s 16 years, 4 months ago

Yes, if you are the programmer of the team then you should be just that, the programmer. Other people shouldn't even have to work on the code much

I'm with Evilish on design though, I help Kilin with programming all the time, but I just help him write up some codes and then complain to him about how he can improve the rest

paul23 16 years, 4 months ago

Well the "problem" is I never really wanted to be the main programmer of the game. I wanted to be a "bottle neck" programmer: I would do the points where bugs arise which the project leader couldn't be able to solve.

Well that's how it started: he had a bug with surfaces. Well I found out he kept declaring surfaces because he "saved" the game before going to a menu, and loaded it when coming back: surfaces aren't freed that way!

But to fix it I had to rewrite huge parts of the code, and simply when I saw his code I could cry.. such a mess. (esp. with the formats: he used different levels of identation, sometimes even no.. he used begin/end and {} just through eachother and many more problems). I started to tell him about the problems and soon discovered he wasn't capable of doing multiplayer (or anything moderate advanced) yet >.<

That's how it came I rewrote the entire engine (the idea -an rts- catched my attention enough to prevent me from leaving).

Maybe I should start my own team so I can set standards. Though I really doubt anyone interested in joining a team would join that team! (+ I'm a really bad leader)

Kenon 16 years, 4 months ago

1. Yes, Alpha Planet and now one I would prefer not to name.

1a. No, although the current one is in progress on PLatformed.

1b. Not really. I'm not the world's greatest programmer and spriter, but I can do just about anything.

2. Poppenkast and The OG's come to mind.

3. 4 years+

4. None.

5. Yes. English.

6. You should just destroy the source and work on your own. My "Team" is just people I call on to Beta test or get music for PLatformed.

biggoron 16 years, 4 months ago

1) AwesomeSoft

1a) Pfft, no. What kind of GM team would we be if we did?

1b) Nope.

2) Nope.

3) Iunno.

4) C/C++, a year or two.

5) C/C++, to some extent.

6) Perfectionism.

7) Iunno.

Leyenda 16 years, 4 months ago

Theres nothing wrong with teams. They certainly not ALL worthless (your title).

sounds like you didn't choose your team very well. That's the only problem here